The Germany Expat Business Show
A podcast that shares knowledge, stories and inspiration for anyone starting, running or growing a business as a non-German in Germany.
The Germany Expat Business Show
From NYC to Berlin and Crushing it in the Insurance Business with John Ismailoglu
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It was a thrill when John Ismailoglu cheerfully accepted my request for a podcast interview. He is hands down one of my favorite LinkedIn follows, posting about - of all things - Insurance!
A fellow American born and raised in NYC, John is a ‘4th culture’ person with a family story that spans Turkey, Bulgaria, the U.S. and now Germany.
With close to two decades in the dynamic realm of insurance, John has seen it all. John's story began in New York where he started from the bottom, selling car insurance in a call center. Over time, he climbed the ranks to handling the needs of prominent businesses and the affluent. "From Call Center to Rockefeller Center" will be the title of John's insurance biography - he just needs to put pen to paper and write the thing.
Nowadays, John is venturing into new territory in Berlin and embarking on a fresh chapter with INSRD, an insurance and risk solution provider for startups, scaleups, and tech.
In this interview we talked about:
- How the buzz and diversity of Berlin feels similar to being in his hometown of NYC 3.
- How a his experience working at a call center in high school led to INSRD
- Our shared American respect for the art and talent of selling and customer service (of course!)
- His German language journey from learning it, forgetting it, then learning it again and then learning ‘Insurance German’
- His rule of thumb advice for the basic insurances every business needs
- Balancing the market opportunities with the bureacratic challenges of setting up and running a business in Germany
- His excellent, excellent LinkedIn game and how and why he built up a following on the platform
And congrats! INSRD just received €500k in Pre-seed funding!
You can find this episode and all episodes as well as show notes for each at https://thegermanylist.de/the-germany-expat-business-show-podcast/
Starting or running a business in Germany as a foreigner? Already running an online business in Germany as an expat? Wanting to grow your German-based business? Working as a freelancer in Germany? You'll love my guide with over 30 resources for expat business owners in Germany.
Hi, I'm Eleanor Meyerhofer, a native Californian designer and digital strategist. In October of 1999, a few years after graduating from design school, I flew from San Francisco to Munich with a fistful of Deutschmarks, a dial-up connection and an extremely vague plan. 20 plus years later, after a 10-year stint at a global agency freelancing and launching two online businesses, I'm still here. Now. I'm talking to other XPAP business owners to share knowledge, stories and inspiration for other non-Germans running businesses in Germany. I am here with John Ismalolo.
Speaker 2:We practiced a lot. You got it right. I love it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and I'm just going to kick it off with the question I ask everyone on this podcast, which is what is the two-minute story of how you ended up in Germany?
Speaker 2:And I think this is one of the most common questions I get so happy to answer it. Initially it was for a woman, so at that time, my spouse is originally from Berlin, a true Berlin, and, if I wanted to define it further, auguste Abbeyte Kind and I did live in Berlin about 13 years ago for a short time completely different city. I actually did not like it at all back then and there was a bit of back and forth between the US and Germany. And now, as of seven years, I've been here and, similar to you, I don't have any immediate plans of going back, because I think when you leave the US, you start realizing all of the goods that this country has to offer. Not to say that it's perfect, because there's a lot of areas of improvement for Germany, but yeah, that's how I originally got here. And then, when kids came to the picture and school started and you form a business, the anchor that you dropped just gets deeper and heavier. So I'm here. I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let me get this straight you were born and raised in the States.
Speaker 2:I was born and raised in the States, so specifically in Northern New Jersey, and I grew up there, for some time lived in basically the New York metropolitan area, so spent some time in Long Island as well, and a true East coaster at heart. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll set that aside for now. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:You're from the West Coast, I know it's all love, it's all good.
Speaker 1:But you said, guests are by their kind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not me. My spouse. Her parents came to Germany as guest workers with the wave of Turkish people that came about what? Five years ago. And the reason I was born in the United States is because my dad made it there as a refugee in 1968. So I'm the proud child of a refugee.
Speaker 1:Directly from D.
Speaker 2:No, he has a bit of an interesting story which I think could be a podcast episode in and of itself. But real quickly. He was born and raised in Bulgaria, escaped the communist regime, made it to Turkey, was jailed on the suspicion of being a spy, then went to Italy after begging consulates to give him a chance, stayed in Italy for a few years and then, as part of a church mission, came to the US as a refugee, to New York City.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you don't mind me asking, then your ethnicity is actually Bulgarian.
Speaker 2:No, turkish. So there's a large population of Turkish people who, yeah, that part of the world has a rich history. So, if you really want to define it, if you look at the Ottoman Empire, which lasted 600 years, there's a lot of Turkish people that are still living in country outside of Turkey. So these would be categorized as Balkan Turks, the ones that are in Bulgaria.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:And that part of the world. So it's like me right, turkish but born and raised in New York. He was Turkish but born and raised in Bulgaria.
Speaker 1:Okay, so on your side there is no German. Turkish-german connection.
Speaker 2:Zero, zero. And I had no ambitions of living in Germany. I mean, the only thing, the only connection to Germany was through my affinity for cars, and I love the German cars. So a little did I know I'd be living here. So here I am.
Speaker 1:So you're like a fourth culture person and you've got all kinds of things. So many.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I feel like the United Nations at the time and I really wouldn't have it any other way, especially growing up in the New York metropolitan area. I mean, it's such a diverse arguably the diverse, the most diverse part of the world, and I just love seeing people from different backgrounds and countries living together in harmony. And I think that's why Berlin resonates with me so much, because you do get that to a certain degree, not as extreme as New York, but there are good elements of that here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay. Well, I don't know how I stumbled across you on LinkedIn, but I did and I'm glad, and you are the founder of a company called. Do you call it Insured?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:So let's go back about two decades. That's when I got into the insurance industry and I didn't grow up as a kid wanting to become an insurance person. I don't think any child does, but for me it was a matter of being in college and I needed a job. So the only place that really worked with my school schedule was a call center where you can sell car insurance over the phone 24 hours a day. So that's how I got into the industry. I had no plans of continuing, but after that gig I went to a job recruiter and she was like hey, you have a little bit of experience in insurance. Seems like you know how to sell. Why don't you just continue? And as an early 20 something, I was like yeah, okay, fine, that sounds good. Well, fast forward.
Speaker 2:A lot of different types of experiences in the industry, both on the agency, brokerage and insurance company side. Business went from handling very basic risks to then now handling very complex and specialty risks. So when I came to Germany I obviously wanted to continue in the insurance world. But you need to become a licensed insurance professional here, specifically a gift proof that for a physician. So all this, all the testing, all that stuff is done in German. Initially I was hesitant. I'm like there's no way I'm going to do this. But one day I just bit the bullet. I took 18 months already, condensed it into 10 weeks, translated hundreds of pages, got my license and then that opened the path to get started.
Speaker 2:So initially I started at a agency as part of Alliance's captive agency network, saw an opportunity where there's tens of thousands of people like me in this city who are English speaking, that need services or, more specifically, support with their insurances. And that's how I got started here and getting deeper into that network and into those groups of people. Realize, hey, it's not just individuals that need this help, it's also companies. And that's where the focus on startup scale ups and tech organizations began. So initially there was a plan to make this a unit within a larger corporate structure. Realize that's never going to happen in a corporate environment.
Speaker 2:And that's when the idea was planted in my mind where, okay, this needs to become its own thing. And early last year February, I left that world and go straight into startup world by forming my own company together with my co-founder, stefan Baer, and what we do is we provide insurance and risk mitigation solutions for startup scale ups and tech companies today. Pretty soon, I think this is going to be aired some point first quarter of 2024. I think by then we'll have announced it. But we will be branching into other areas and what we're doing is serving industries and companies that are currently underserved by the industry, and that's our unique positioning. We have the right solutions to make sure that they manage, mitigate and handle all of their risks in a efficient way.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have a bunch of questions, but go for it Just first. What are some underserved industries to say? Because I will say, when I came to Germany I had no idea there was so much insurance.
Speaker 2:They love insurance here, you know they really do. So you would think that, since it's such an insurance loving country that everybody would be covered and served properly. So serving for me is two things. One, customer service look, coming from the US, it's not the greatest here in Germany, let's be real. And secondly is when you look at certain companies and the risk profiles they have from an insurance company standpoint. If a business's activities fall outside of, let's say, the traditional mold and they do, maybe more specialty business activities well then it's hard to find individuals to service their needs right. And if you pair that with the fact that most founders of startup scale-ups are non-native to this country you may not necessarily speak German well then the level of being underserved, I think, triples. So we notice there's these people, this huge group that need help and they're not getting it.
Speaker 2:And we kept on hearing the same things. Right, we tried to get insurance. No one gets back to us. They don't understand the type of business we buy, the policies. It doesn't accurately reflect what we're doing. We feel like we're just paying for a piece of paper. And when we ask questions we're not getting the answers. And when you hear this like a hundred times, okay, there's a problem, and for me, a problem is something that can be solved, and that's exactly what Insured did when we launched. We said let's solve this problem for the people and running the company. For the past year, we've identified a lot more problems that need solving and we'll be tackling those in 2024.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to go back to when you brought here and you did the very long work for becoming an official insurance guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So did you speak German.
Speaker 2:So my German is interesting. When I lived here a long time ago I did the intensive class, so that really set a strong foundation. I spoke it really well back then, but there was such a huge gap where I didn't use it so I lost the speaking component of it, not entirely, but let's say by 75, 60%. The comprehension part never went away, so I understand it really well. I don't have any problem in understanding German. I'm speaking especially within the context of more, let's say, formal settings. My skills aren't there, but for this exam I already had 15 years of experience in the insurance world. It was just a matter of understanding how it's done here, translating that material into a language that I understand, which is English, and doing what's necessary to pass the exam. So I think you can break it down. It's two categories.
Speaker 2:One is you have regular German and then, you have insurance, german and that's basically contract talk, legal talk, and I don't care what language it's in. It usually doesn't reflect the ease of speaking that language. So it was a challenge. I have to say it was probably the hardest thing that I've done from an educational standpoint in my life. I was very close to quitting. A good thing I did I pushed through and made it out alive.
Speaker 1:Okay and yeah, I can't imagine I used to be really good, but then, after I got married, if I get something from the insurance company, I just hand it to my husband. So can you talk a little bit about what it was like when you decided, okay, no, I'm going to start my own thing. What did that process look like for you?
Speaker 2:So the first thing is making the decision to actually take that step right, and when you're in a position where you have that security, it's a tough one to make because you're breaking away from that and saying you know what, I'm going to fly on my own.
Speaker 2:But you know, when you pair it together with the right team and the right plan and vision, that makes it much easier From a bureaucratic standpoint. I mean, it goes without saying there was a ton of challenges or annoyances that we had to handle. So you know, forming a company, going to the northerly, signing papers, going to the, getting the right documents in order to get set up I mean that's just the pain that comes with forming a company in this country. And then it's a matter of okay, we see an opportunity, let's go after it. And we were able to quickly prove that the ideas that we had, or the problems that we perceived, were real and that we were able to come up with a solution for it. And then you just continue building on that. So I can go into this in very fine detail, but keep it short. That's the way we approach them.
Speaker 1:You mentioned, you have a family and security and going out on your own and you know the risks associated with that. Did you have? And you can share as much or as little as you want. But did you have any kind of bunting or did you bootstrap or did you just know you were going to be able to get enough clients right out of the gate? Like, how did you handle going from being annoyed to starting your own?
Speaker 2:business, yeah. So we were fortunate enough to hit the ground running hard and just start selling, right? So with insurance, you sell, you get your commission and then that translates to revenue, right? Not to say that it was easy in the beginning. I mean, there's still a process of gaining the trust of people under this entirely new brand. I knew a lot of people, but that doesn't really mean anything to the greater market. So again, for us it was I don't want to say easier, but we were fortunate enough to get out there and sell, which brought in money. So we did boost bootstrap for quite some time. We did raise a angel round, which we'll be announcing soon, and of course that's going to help propel our efforts a bit further.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's talk about selling. Yeah, so I mean you said and you strike me as someone who's probably good at selling, and I mean that as a compliment.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks and goodbye. I mean, I remember I had a when I started it, when I worked the agency for years here, and we like knew what, behind it, yours they gave.
Speaker 1:They sent me to an insurance market to pick my private health insurance then, and I am forever grateful to the guy because he knew the policy he gave me said not all companies will cover you in your home country, especially if you're American, and I actually ended up years ago in a hospital and was like had a hundred thousand Euros and bills and they're like no pay at all and I was just like thanks for that guy.
Speaker 2:So we're friends as an American right yeah.
Speaker 1:But it could have. Even with German health insurance it could have been, I could have. I didn't have that policy. It wouldn't have been. So you're covered. But so are you in a situation where Companies, they have certain legal requirements to have insurance, are you going to them explaining why it's a good idea, like what, how, what's your end?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no. So there's really only one insurance company that's a big or tory here in Germany, and that's your workplace accident insurance, right? So beyond that, you really don't need insurance. I mean, you also don't need a parachute when you jump out of an airplane, you don't need a spare tire. Your car, you don't have to wear seatbelt. But that's usually not the best practice, right? So our approach is is pretty simple we talk to our customers, understand the type of business that they run, mm-hmm, where they're at today, where they want to be in the future, and then develop a plan to help them understand their risks and Say today, based on what we've understood about you, these are the coverages that you should consider, right? So nothing more, nothing less. And then we develop a roadmap. As they grow, as they pivot, as they expand into new markets, we then say, okay, it's time to talk about this policy. So it's, it's, it's very targeted, and Our mantra is nothing more, nothing less. Whatever you need today is what we'll suggest you.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, can I ask you asking for a friend? Yeah what are your like? You have like, off the top of your head, three Things that you recommend. Like, say, a fellow for neuro web design.
Speaker 2:Well, look, the insurance setup is very specific to each company, but there is a general rule of thumb. The foundational coverage that most companies and fellow Producers typically obtain is liability coverage, right. So if you cause damages to someone else or if you don't Deliver your services in the way you promise them and you get sued or there's a claim brought against you, this is the foundational coverage that I would say 99% of our clients obtain, and then it really branches off into a A variety of other insurances. If you're, for example, handling a lot of sensitive data, you may want to consider cyber. If you have employees and you're worried about Employee lawsuits, there's insurance for that. If you have a lot of hardware, there's insurance. So the list goes on and on and on, but it typically starts with liability. That's where motor clients begin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, last year being in, I think it was last year. You may or may not have heard about this, but there was a. There is a big open shoot about Google fonts being legal in Germany and that was like a scary moment because a couple not many, but a couple clients were coming to me and I've built in. Google fonts are built into the platform.
Speaker 1:I use and it was really scary for me to think like, oh wait, is this my responsibility? And none of the companies really talking about it, because nobody knew. But that was the first time I really kind of thought, ooh, I need to kind of cover my ass here a little bit, because am I responsible Anyway. So we talked a little bit about this, or you mentioned some of the bureaucracy, but in your view, like what would you say are some of the pros of running a business in Germany?
Speaker 2:Great question. I see a lot of opportunity in this country, especially when, personally, I keep my eyes and ears on the US to see what's going on with the insurance companies and insure texts there and Seeing what they've achieved and how they've become successful. Well, when you see the markets that they've captured and you realize Similar markets exist here without those solutions being present, well, to me that's opportunity Right. So a country like the US, particularly the area that I come from, there's so much competition, it's super saturated here, it's a bit more of an open field. So in that respect, I say Germany's and Europe as a whole even is a great opportunity, depending on what it is that you're selling or what services you're providing. So not so much saturation as there is back home.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that is I?
Speaker 2:Don't know the reason, but I can tell you that Germany, specifically, tends to be anywhere from three to five years behind the US when it comes to technology. It's like this, this wave that takes a while to get over here. If I had to take a guess, it Could be due to the general conservative mindset that exists here. I'm a lot of established processes, industries and things that have been working so well for so long, where I feel there's an attitude that you know why. Why change it if it works?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm right, which I agree with to a certain point, but that can be also very detrimental right you need to be over change. You need to embrace technology. This doesn't mean going crazy and having the robots take over everything that we do, but at the same time there needs to be understanding that there are other ways to do things and that those should be Embraced in a balanced way.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. I really don't want to go back to selling a little bit, yeah, so, okay. So there's only the one requirement. And you knew you could hit the ground running selling, did you have? Was it because you had a big network like?
Speaker 2:How are you?
Speaker 1:able to do that.
Speaker 2:So when I came here, I had no network. I mean, I didn't know anybody, I didn't know anything. And it was a bit challenging because you come from a country where you had a network. I still had the experience. No, no one took that away from me, that didn't go anywhere. But I didn't have the network. So, coming here, I said I I need to build one and and I need to do a quick.
Speaker 2:So when I got started, or when I made the decision to to perform a network, it was around October, november of 2019, and what I did was I went to a ton of events, oftentimes four to five a week, just meeting people, shaking hands, understanding what ecosystems like, who's in, who's in this environment, etc. That was going great until this little pandemic on the way and everything got shut down. And that's when I Started thinking, okay, how do I continue doing this? Like I need to do this if I want to be successful here in this country. And that's when I turned my head towards LinkedIn. I mean, I always had an account. I like never used it. I said you know what? Let me give this thing a try. And that's when I realized, okay, so you can do this on a social media platform without having to run to events all the time, and it's been so awesome in terms of meeting people, gaining knowledge, getting customers, and Still, this day, I have no strategy.
Speaker 2:People ask me all the time how do you do it? The only thing I do is, every morning I caught 15 to 20 minutes, or almost every morning, post whatever's on my mind with the hopes that people who read it like it, and the one thing I keep in my mind is what would my customers want to hear? What do they want to know about? So, since we deal with startups, there's a lot of information that I share around funding, around general startup stats here in Germany and across Europe, and it's proven to work, which has been awesome. And that Activity which I've done on a platform is what really propelled my network. Right, because when you're sharing certain information, you start getting the attention of people that you want to work with, and then it's so easy to reach out to people on this platform. I think you get access to people that you normally wouldn't Through traditional ways. It's just a matter of dropping the right message and oftentimes you're connected and next thing you know You're talking, doing business, etc. So, yeah, network is a super crucial one, and that, I would say, is the key element to what has allowed me to do what I am doing today in this country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heart LinkedIn and would get that and kind of bell into it when I started getting cold leads because I thought it was just a you know graveyard for my old CD. Exactly I wanted to go nine to five, but that was like oh no, no, this is like a never ending business cocktail. I was going to ask you that question, but you answered it because you're. Everybody should go to John's profile on LinkedIn. He has great content on any given day.
Speaker 1:There will be like a James Brown gift or really interest stats on, like, where do you do you have, Okay, if you really just sit down each day like and just let the spirit move you, you don't have like kind of a bucket of topics you talk about or what?
Speaker 2:So it is very spirit driven, although if I come across a piece of content or some information that I think could be useful, I basically have a folder where I bookmark everything and then it's just like this huge repository of information and that's really it. I mean again, oftentimes people ask me what you know, what's the deal behind this? How do you do it? I think the number one thing is just being consistent. Just just being consistent, getting into the habit of posting, understanding that when you first start you're probably going to have very low reach, no one's going to engage, and that's fine. As long as you keep going at it and start understanding what content resonates well with whom, then I think you can find some success. And the other piece of information that I give and I try to say to this is just be authentic, Right, just keep it real. I understand that people oftentimes want to share all the good things in life, which is fine, but I thought a lot of people don't get blinded by that because that's not reality.
Speaker 2:That's not reality. Everyone's sharing the happy moments. Nobody wants to talk about the bad moments and I think there should be more talk around bad moments and how we overcome that, and I think that's the real value that people like and the authenticity really helps there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, 100%. And you said you do this every day.
Speaker 2:Almost every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, just about every day, Okay. So one last point about a question about selling. So you clearly have a niche, let me see I think you said it a few times. So start-up, scale-ups and tech companies Correct, good job there. And did you decide that, as you were, like you said, kind of learning the ecosystem in Berlin, or did you know, like that's what I'm passionate about, or what led to that?
Speaker 2:I mean, in the beginning there was zero passion about. I didn't even know anything about start-ups. I knew that there was this start-up world that existed here in Berlin. But I really got into it when consulting people for their personal insurances and seeing, hey, a lot of these people work with these companies called start-ups. A lot of them are founders of these companies called start-ups. Well, what does that side of thing look like? And that's how I got into it and realized okay, so the challenges that these people face on a personal level they're experiencing on the company level when it comes to their insurance, let's take a look, let's see what happens. And that's how I got into it. So, again, I knew nothing about the start-up ecosystem, the funding world, vc. I had zero knowledge. It's something that I kind of stumbled into and just kept educating myself on. And, yeah, it's been a few years now and I feel I know way more than I did when I started.
Speaker 1:Okay, and is that part of what makes selling easier?
Speaker 2:Having a niche? I think so, definitely having a niche. And paired with that is understanding the types of clients that you talk to, because the feedback that we get oftentimes is hey, when we talk to you, you just understand how a start-up works. You know our world, whereas the traditional broker most times doesn't. So if you educate yourself in the environment that these companies live in, it just helps so much when you have these consultations and talks and really positions yourself as someone that is not really positions yourself as someone that just gets it.
Speaker 1:Okay, what other? Do you have any rules for selling or, like I approached to selling, that you could impart? Or is it all distributive?
Speaker 2:I think selling or I know selling is something that can be learned. It's definitely a science. The first thing to realize is that you're dealing with other humans. I think a lot of sales people don't put an emphasis on this. There's this ugly, spray and pray approach where it's like very robotic, it's scripted just for me. What works is just being human and keeping it real. It's a conversation with another person.
Speaker 2:I'm very curious about my clients. I love getting glimpses into their worlds and learning what they do, and I think that helps this quote unquote sales process, because you connect with them first on a human, individual level and then it's no secret. The context of that meeting is about insurance or maybe risk, and if you're able to establish and build that rapport first, well, when you get into the technical stuff, it's so much easier. It's so much more of a natural transition versus what I see with German salespeople and sorry, this is something that irritates me it's very features driven. You go into sales consultation and they immediately start talking about all the bells and whistles about their product and how great everything is, which it may be, but where's the connection with the person?
Speaker 2:If it's an hour meeting, they talk for 55 minutes about how great their offering is, and then there's five minutes at the end. So, yeah, by the way, how are you doing? How's everything? And to me, look again. I deal with a completely different set of people. Maybe that does work with the native population here, but with the founders that I work with, that does not fly.
Speaker 1:That is a cultural difference that I have really come to appreciate, or at least understand, and that's why I said you seem like you're probably selling them as a compliment. I really think Americans I mean painting with a broad brush are good salespeople. That is like part of American DNA and you have, and that is not always good. Sometimes people sell stuff and make it sound like something it isn't, and Germans are notorious for being great engineers and building great things, but they don't know how to sell.
Speaker 1:Not always, but it's like, yes, it does have these amazing features, but that's, you know, I'm a big Donald Miller fan and, like you know, speaking to people's aspirations and dreams and everything, and it's like, ok, but yeah, I think that is definitely a cultural difference.
Speaker 2:Again, painting with a very broad brush, yeah, totally, and it's not meant to be something bad, right, I think all cultures have their great sides and what the motto or mantra that I've taken for myself is, you know first understand what's good and apply it to yourself. From all these different cultures. So the three cultures that I swim in the most are American, turkish and German. So I always say dream like an American, start like a German. Or let me rewind, dream like an American, start like a Turk and finish like a German.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:So when you, when you apply the good from from the different cultures, it helps.
Speaker 1:OK, so start like an American Dream, like an American, and then why tell me about start like a Turk?
Speaker 2:Turkish people always have great ideas. They always want to do stuff. They get started, but I don't see the follow through most times. Ok meaning they just sort of let it die out, ok, ok. With Germans, on the other hand, whatever they start, most of the times they finish, and I love that, I love that yeah so it's combining all three elements and making them all work for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. I think you just gave me the title for this episode.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:OK, so while I mean I think you know we talked about the bureaucracy quickly and stuff and and what are the pros, any other things that are a little bit of a challenge of running a company in Germany?
Speaker 2:Well, not knowing the language could definitely be a problem. Thankfully, it's not so much of an issue here. In Berlin, I feel like English is the de facto language of the city Exactly. It's like when you speak German. It's like what are you doing? You need to know your market. You need to make sure that that market exists here in.
Speaker 1:Germany.
Speaker 2:So you know, coming here with like a pure American mindset and approach doesn't always work Right. You have to also be adaptable and understand how you need to tailor your approach to this specific needs of the country here. So not knowing that or not realizing that and not executing on it will definitely lead to problems. And running a business in general is tough. It's not easy. So I don't care which part of the world you're in, and anyone who says it's easy that they don't have is full of themselves. It's just, it's something that requires a lot of dedication and energy.
Speaker 2:And for anyone who's contemplating starting their own thing, just know that it's not to scare you away, but it's to understand what you're signing up for. And it's not for everybody too right? That's the other thing. I think a lot of people fantasize that you know, if they form their own business, everything's going to be great. It can be, but you're going to need to put in a lot of work, a lot of sweat, a lot of tears to get there. So keep that in mind if you plan on starting your own business.
Speaker 1:Okay, good advice and you can talk about this or not if you want. But I noticed the other day you posted something about being a part of vision lab, being in a vision lab cohort. You want to talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Vision lab is a wonderful program that's part of Early Bird Adventure Capital, and vision labs mission is supporting founders with a migrant background.
Speaker 2:They're one of the few that actually follow through on this, meaning they walk the walk, and I love that, because there's a lot of founders here that have a migrant background who may not necessarily have access to all the resources and networks that are required to form as part of the business. So vision lab helps with that, and there's a lot of other areas they provide assistance with. So, whether it's refining your pitch, getting plugged into networks that can propel your startup forward, including investors, there's a lot of support that they offer, and we're proud to be in cohort number five, and for me, it's a super special moment because I've been supporting the program for quite some time now and it's a bit of a full circle situation where we're now actually participating in it. So there's, I believe, 12 startups across 17 nations. Don't quote me on that, but it is a very diverse group of founders and startups based here in Berlin and across Germany, and we're looking forward to the next six months of what it'll bring for us and also what we can contribute to them as well.
Speaker 1:That's great. I talked to the episode before yours will be at Lila, the Hive of the Migrant Accelerator.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm actually working for a client now and she she's she's like a UX person basically, but works with an organization called SINGA. She's in Stuttgart, that kind of does the same thing. She's a mentor there. But then a lot of you know, I just kind of was living a life here for a long time and until I sort of did this gig and started this podcast, I really didn't understand how much amazing stuff is happening in Germany right now, especially with the migrant, expat, immigrant community, whatever you call it. But just I didn't. I also didn't know that after America, germany is most immigrated tree.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, that's number two. It's a far second.
Speaker 1:But the next one is, I would have thought, Canada or something, but it's.
Speaker 2:Germany. Yeah, I mean, there's a ton of people with a migrant background as country. There's a ton of wonderful people and I think, if you look at the stats, it's either one in every three or one in every four, so it's not a small number. And the truth is it's great to have these organizations that support individuals like that, myself included, and I think that first hand grew up seeing challenges of being someone or being the son of someone in a country where you don't know the language, you don't have the resources, you have no money, you have no network.
Speaker 2:I mean, my dad was there as a refugee with nothing. Through typical immigrant mentality and hard work and perseverance, he was able to, you know, raise us and provide us with what we needed. We weren't rich by any means, but we weren't hungry at the same time. So there's a ton of people who come to this country. Even those that are born here to migrant parents oftentimes don't have the access to the networks and resources they need. So, yeah, the migrant accelerator led by Lila is one great organization. You have migrant, you have two, and there's a few others that have popped up, I would say, within the last three to four years that have grown into great communities and have provided wonderful support to the people who need it the most.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you feel like you have an advantage as an American?
Speaker 2:That's such a good question. Sometimes yes, I'm going to keep it real there is a weight or benefit to being an American. There's a variety of reasons for that, you know, because of pop culture and just America, as you know, the leader and entertainment, and just being so well known as a country and culture across the world. It really depends on the situation. I think so. With the Ausländerbehörde, for example, there was definitely some advantages to that, because some of my friends who aren't from America that look like me have had very and I also had difficult times, but not as difficult as they did. So there is advantage in that respect.
Speaker 2:There's also advantage in coming from that business world and applying that mentality to your business efforts here in Germany. I think that really gives Americans an advantage because we come from a completely different style of doing business. In some aspects it is a bit more advanced than better, and when people get a taste of that here and by people I mean native people they're like oh, this is like a completely different way of handling business. I like this, what is this? So those definitely yeah, those are definitely advantages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right. So, wrapping up, I am just going to ask if you have any lessons learned, advice or things you would have done differently if you had to start all over again in life or in Germany In let's say, with your business now.
Speaker 2:Truth be told, I wouldn't have formed a business entity in Germany. I know that's very sad and harsh to hear for some people, but there's a lot of challenges and disadvantages that come along with that. However, we have no choice, meaning us as insured. We have no choice because we're in a regulatory environment and have to have a business entity here in Germany. But this isn't just something that I feel. There's a lot of founders that I speak with who, if they were asked that same question, they would respond with the same answer. And it goes beyond the bureaucracy. It's also the taxation that's such a burden here and it's upsetting because there are ways to do it that support newly formed companies, especially startups. So if you look at other countries in Europe who have sort of figured this out, it would be a matter of using that as a source of inspiration and tailoring it here for the German market and really supporting this ecosystem, because there's so many good minds with so many good ideas who can really contribute a lot to this society.
Speaker 2:But the sad reality is a lot of people are leaving this country because of a lot of the hurdles that they face. So I hope one day soon, the mindset changes, because it's not due to a lack of resources. There's a ton of resources in this country. The people who are in positions to be able to actually make these changes need to have a shift in their mindset and understand the greater opportunity that's available. And with the organizations that I mentioned earlier, a lot of them are pushing hard to make these changes and we do see things going in the right direction and I'm hopeful for a better future where people will flock to Germany, to foreign businesses and get to establish here. But until we get to that point, there's a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 1:Are you targeting specifically? Like here? You can't have an LLC or a limited or that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:No, I mean you can set up a variety of different types of business entities, right. So you can have an Ugea, gamebaha or other forms. I think it's the processes and being able to actually establish those types of business entities that's the problem, right, and that's just one piece of the puzzle. So, if you look at other countries, oftentimes you can do this online in a matter of days with very little cost, whereas here, if you're forming a GameBaha, there's a certain amount of money that you need to put in, there's a certain process that you need to go through, which involves a lot of paperwork, which involves a notary, then X amount of time goes by before you're actually able to be up and running, and then you need to wait for your tax number, but some companies can't charge their clients until they get that tax number. We are companies waiting for 16 weeks. And then you need to open up a bank account, but you can't do this without that, and then you're in a chicken.
Speaker 2:So it's like all of these silly things that can be easily solved, but until the mindset is there to say, hey, look, we really need to revamp this whole situation and make it easier for people to perform companies and really create an environment to push entrepreneurship. It's gonna be tough until we get there and again, this isn't my opinion. This is the opinion of so many people that I deal with. Work with a ton of founders, and we keep on hearing this time and time again, and the thing that hurts me the most is people are actually making the decision to pick up and leave this country, which really stinks because, again, there's so much opportunity. There just needs to be an environment which supports these types of companies and entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. Have you heard of a guy named Bharat Chowdhury? No, if I ever do this, I'm gonna have like a short mini series called FU Germany, because he's an Indian guy and he came here and he studied and he actually decided to do. He did it all in German. Like he learned German and he was like a super hustler and he had a whole YouTube series of like his whole thing was he was helping people in India do all the paperwork to get to the university, to Blue Card Visas, and he had that, and he had an Airbnb business and he had all this stuff and he had this great YouTube series on like this is how you do everything in Germany.
Speaker 1:And then I was like going through all this, and then there's one where he's like why I moved to Romania. Exactly, and he was like I set up a company here for one euro. It's amazing. And I was like, oh, he's gone and there's another big square spacer Page Fronten. You probably don't know who she is.
Speaker 1:She's a big square space influencer. She married a German guy and I was like, oh, he's going on. And then one day the video came out why I moved to the UK. I couldn't take it anymore, and it's all the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I mean look, as we said in the beginning of this conversation, as an American, when you move here, you realize there's so many good things in this country. Right, not everything is bad, but the areas that are bad can be improved. Like I said, I do see improvement. We're gonna get there eventually. It's gonna take some time, but until the right mindset is there, with the powers that be changed, it's gonna take some time. It's gonna take some time. Let's just put it that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And to me, the risk is mitigated in the fact that you have a social culture where you're not gonna end up on the street if you fail and all that, yeah and not have to worry about going bankrupt to a hospital bill which sadly so many people have to go through in the US, and public transportation is great here in this city. I mean, there's a lot of benefits, but as always, there's room for improvement, and I'm looking forward to the day where these things are improved in the business and entrepreneurship world here in Germany.
Speaker 1:Okay, one last question and then, I'll let you go Just to clarify you cannot, or can you? Because I remember when I was this is years ago I was thinking about going freelance and I thought, oh, I can incorporate in the UK and have a small, limited end due business here. But then Brexit happened. But can you have your business incorporated somewhere else and still do business here?
Speaker 2:From what I understand, yes, it also depends on the type of business you're doing and the industry that you're in. I think you can only do it that way up until a certain point, because then there's tax implications. So I'm not a tax person, I'm not a legal person. I don't know the ins and outs. I know it's doable. I feel it's only up to a certain point. But this shouldn't even be a conversation, right? Why should people even have to think about forming an entity?
Speaker 2:outside of this country to make it easier for them. Let's just make it easier for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, great. Thank you so much for being on the show, John. It was great to meet you in person.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:And I look forward to seeing you more on LinkedIn and maybe one day in Berlin, who knows?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for having me. It was great, thank you, no problem.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. You can find this episode and all other episodes of the Germany X-PAT Business Show at my website at wwwellinormeihovercom slash podcast. That's wwwellinormeihovercom slash podcast.